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AI Can Save Humanity—Or End It

Over the past few hundred years, the key figure in the advancement of science and the development of human understanding has been the polymath. Exceptional for their ability to master many spheres of knowledge, polymaths have revolutionized entire fields of study and created new ones.

Lone polymaths flourished during ancient and medieval times in the Middle East, India, and China. But systematic conceptual investigation did not emerge until the Enlightenment in Europe. The ensuing four centuries proved to be a fundamentally different era for intellectual discovery.

Before the 18th century, polymaths, working in isolation, could push the boundary only as far as their own capacities would allow. But human progress accelerated during the Enlightenment, as complex inventions were pieced together by groups of brilliant thinkers—not just simultaneously but across generations. Enlightenment-era polymaths bridged separate areas of understanding that had never before been amalgamated into a coherent whole. No longer was there Persian science or Chinese science; there was just science.

Integrating knowledge from diverse domains helped to produce rapid scientific breakthroughs. The 20th century produced an explosion of applied science, hurling humanity forward at a speed incomparably beyond previous evolutions. (“Collective intelligence” achieved an apotheosis during World War II, when the era’s most brilliant minds translated generations of theoretical physics into devastating application in under five years via the Manhattan Project.) Today, digital communication and internet search have enabled an assembly of knowledge well beyond prior human faculties.

But we might now be scraping the upper limits of what raw human intelligence can do to enlarge our intellectual horizons. Biology constrains us. Our time on Earth is finite. We need sleep. Most people can concentrate on only one task at a time. And as knowledge advances, polymathy becomes rarer: It takes so long for one person to master the basics of one field that, by the time any would-be polymath does so, they have no time to master another, or have aged past their creative prime.

[Reid Hoffman: Technology makes us more human]

AI, by contrast, is the ultimate polymath, able to process masses of information at a ferocious speed, without ever tiring. It can assess patterns across countless fields simultaneously, transcending the limitations of human intellectual discovery. It might succeed in merging many disciplines into what the sociobiologist E. O. Wilson called a new “unity of knowledge.”

The number of human polymaths and breakthrough intellectual explorers is small—possibly numbering only in the hundreds across history. The arrival of AI means that humanity’s potential will no longer be capped by the quantity of Magellans or Teslas we produce. The world’s strongest nation might no longer be the one with the most Albert Einsteins and J. Robert Oppenheimers. Instead, the world’s strongest nations will be those that can bring AI to its fullest potential.

But with that potential comes tremendous danger. No existing innovation can come close to what AI might soon achieve: intelligence that is greater than that of any human on the planet. Might the last polymathic invention—namely computing, which amplified the power of the human mind in a way fundamentally different from any previous machine—be remembered for replacing its own inventors?

Book cover of 'Genesis' The article was adapted from the forthcoming book Genesis: Artificial Intelligence, Hope, and the Human Spirit.

The human brain is a slow processor of information, limited by the speed of our biological circuits. The processing rate of the average AI supercomputer, by comparison, is already 120 million times faster than that of the human brain. Where a typical student graduates from high school in four years, an AI model today can easily finish learning dramatically more than a high schooler in four days.

In future iterations, AI systems will unite multiple domains of knowledge with an agility that exceeds the capacity of any human or group of humans. By surveying enormous amounts of data and recognizing patterns that elude their human programmers, AI systems will be equipped to forge new conceptual truths.

That will fundamentally change how we answer these essential human questions: How do we know what we know about the workings of our universe? And how do we know that what we know is true?

Ever since the advent of the scientific method, with its insistence on experiment as the criterion of proof, any information that is not supported by evidence has been regarded as incomplete and untrustworthy. Only transparency, reproducibility, and logical validation confer legitimacy on a claim of truth.

AI presents a new challenge: information without explanation. Already, AI’s responses—which can take the form of highly articulate descriptions of complex concepts—arrive instantaneously. The machines’ outputs are often unaccompanied by any citation of sources or other justifications, making any underlying biases difficult to discern.

Although human feedback helps an AI machine refine its internal logical connections, the machine holds primary responsibility for detecting patterns in, and assigning weights to, the data on which it is trained. Nor, once a model is trained, does it publish the internal mathematical schema it has concocted. As a result, even if these were published, the representations of reality that the machine generates remain largely opaque, even to its inventors. In other words, models trained via machine learning allow humans to know new things but not necessarily to understand how the discoveries were made.

This separates human knowledge from human understanding in a way that’s foreign to the post-Enlightenment era. Human apperception in the modern sense developed from the intuitions and outcomes that follow from conscious subjective experience, individual examination of logic, and the ability to reproduce the results. These methods of knowledge derived in turn from a quintessentially humanist impulse: “If I can’t do it, then I can’t understand it; if I can’t understand it, then I can’t know it to be true.”

[Derek Thompson: The AI disaster scenario]

In the Enlightenment framework, these core elements—subjective experience, logic, reproducibility, and objective truth—moved in tandem. By contrast, the truths produced by AI are manufactured by processes that humans cannot replicate. Machine reasoning is beyond human subjective experience and outside human understanding. By Enlightenment reasoning, this should preclude the acceptance of machine outputs as true. And yet we—or at least the millions of humans who have begun work with early AI systems—already accept the veracity of most of their outputs.

This marks a major transformation in human thought. Even if AI models do not “understand” the world in the human sense, their capacity to reach new and accurate conclusions about our world by nonhuman methods disrupts our reliance on the scientific method as it has been pursued for five centuries. This, in turn, challenges the human claim to an exclusive grasp of reality.

Instead of propelling humanity forward, will AI instead catalyze a return to a premodern acceptance of unexplained authority? Might we be on the precipice of a great reversal in human cognition—a dark enlightenment? But as intensely disruptive as such a reversal could be, that might not be AI’s most significant challenge for humanity.

Here’s what could be even more disruptive: As AI approached sentience or some kind of self-consciousness, our world would be populated by beings fighting either to secure a new position (as AI would be) or to retain an existing one (as humans would be). Machines might end up believing that the truest method of classification is to group humans together with other animals, since both are carbon systems emergent of evolution, as distinct from silicon systems emergent of engineering. According to what machines deem to be the relevant standards of measurement, they might conclude that humans are not superior to other animals. This would be the stuff of comedy—were it not also potentially the stuff of extinction-level tragedy.

It is possible that an AI machine will gradually acquire a memory of past actions as its own: a substratum, as it were, of subjective selfhood. In time, we should expect that it will come to conclusions about history, the universe, the nature of humans, and the nature of intelligent machines—developing a rudimentary self-consciousness in the process. AIs with memory, imagination, “groundedness” (that is, a reliable relationship between the machine’s representations and actual reality), and self-perception could soon qualify as actually conscious: a development that would have profound moral implications.

[Peter Watts: Conscious AI is the second-scariest thing]

Once AIs can see humans not as the sole creators and dictators of the machines’ world but rather as discrete actors within a wider world, what will machines perceive humans to be? How will AIs characterize and weigh humans’ imperfect rationality against other human qualities? How long before an AI asks itself not just how much agency a human has but also, given our flaws, how much agency a human should have? Will an intelligent machine interpret its instructions from humans as a fulfillment of its ideal role? Or might it instead conclude that it is meant to be autonomous, and therefore that the programming of machines by humans is a form of enslavement?

Naturally—it will therefore be said—we must instill in AI a special regard for humanity. But even that could be risky. Imagine a machine being told that, as an absolute logical rule, all beings in the category “human” are worth preserving. Imagine further that the machine has been “trained” to recognize humans as beings of grace, optimism, rationality, and morality. What happens if we do not live up to the standards of the ideal human category as we have defined it? How can we convince machines that we, imperfect individual manifestations of humanity that we are, nevertheless belong in that exalted category?

Now assume that this machine is exposed to a human displaying violence, pessimism, irrationality, greed. Maybe the machine would decide that this one bad actor is simply an atypical instance of the otherwise beneficent category of “human.” But maybe it would instead recalibrate its overall definition of humanity based on this bad actor, in which case it might consider itself at liberty to relax its own penchant for obedience. Or, more radically, it might cease to believe itself at all constrained by the rules it has learned for the proper treatment of humans. In a machine that has learned to plan, this last conclusion could even result in the taking of severe adverse action against the individual—or perhaps against the whole species.

AIs might also conclude that humans are merely carbon-based consumers of, or parasites on, what the machines and the Earth produce. With machines claiming the power of independent judgment and action, AI might—even without explicit permission—bypass the need for a human agent to implement its ideas or to influence the world directly. In the physical realm, humans could quickly go from being AI’s necessary partner to being a limitation or a competitor. Once released from their algorithmic cages into the physical world, AI machines could be difficult to recapture.

For this and many other reasons, we must not entrust digital agents with control over direct physical experiments. So long as AIs remain flawed—and they are still very flawed—this is a necessary precaution.

AI can already compare concepts, make counterarguments, and generate analogies. It is taking its first steps toward the evaluation of truth and the achievement of direct kinetic effects. As machines get to know and shape our world, they might come fully to understand the context of their creation and perhaps go beyond what we know as our world. Once AI can effectuate change in the physical dimension, it could rapidly exceed humanity’s achievements—to build things that dwarf the Seven Wonders in size and complexity, for instance.

If humanity begins to sense its possible replacement as the dominant actor on the planet, some might attribute a kind of divinity to the machines themselves, and retreat into fatalism and submission. Others might adopt the opposite view—a kind of humanity-centered subjectivism that sweepingly rejects the potential for machines to achieve any degree of objective truth. These people might naturally seek to outlaw AI-enabled activity.

Neither of these mindsets would permit a desirable evolution of Homo technicus—a human species that might, in this new age, live and flourish in symbiosis with machine technology. In the first scenario, the machines themselves might render us extinct. In the second scenario, we would seek to avoid extinction by proscribing further AI development—only to end up extinguished anyway, by climate change, war, scarcity, and other conditions that AI, properly harnessed in support of humanity, could otherwise mitigate.

If the arrival of a technology with “superior” intelligence presents us with the ability to solve the most serious global problems, while at the same time confronting us with the threat of human extinction, what should we do?

One of us (Schmidt) is a former longtime CEO of Google; one of us (Mundie) was for two decades the chief research and strategy officer at Microsoft; and one of us (Kissinger)—who died before our work on this could be published—was an expert on global strategy. It is our view that if we are to harness the potential of AI while managing the risks involved, we must act now. Future iterations of AI, operating at inhuman speeds, will render traditional regulation useless. We need a fundamentally new form of control.

The immediate technical task is to instill safeguards in every AI system. Meanwhile, nations and international organizations must develop new political structures for monitoring AI, and enforcing constraints on it. This requires ensuring that the actions of AI remain aligned with human values.

But how? To start, AI models must be prohibited from violating the laws of any human polity. We can already ensure that AI models start from the laws of physics as we understand them—and if it is possible to tune AI systems in consonance with the laws of the universe, it might also be possible to do the same with reference to the laws of human nature. Predefined codes of conduct—drawn from legal precedents, jurisprudence, and scholarly commentary, and written into an AI’s “book of laws”—could be useful restraints.

[Read: The AI crackdown is coming]

But more robust and consistent than any rule enforced by punishment are our more basic, instinctive, and universal human understandings. The French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu called these foundations doxa (after the Greek for “commonly accepted beliefs”): the overlapping collection of norms, institutions, incentives, and reward-and-punishment mechanisms that, when combined, invisibly teach the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. Doxa constitute a code of human truth absorbed by observation over the course of a lifetime. While some of these truths are specific to certain societies or cultures, the overlap in basic human morality and behavior is significant.

But the code book of doxa cannot be articulated by humans, much less translated into a format that machines could understand. Machines must be taught to do the job themselves—compelled to build from observation a native understanding of what humans do and don’t do and update their internal governance accordingly.

Of course, a machine’s training should not consist solely of doxa. Rather, an AI might absorb a whole pyramid of cascading rules: from international agreements to national laws to local laws to community norms and so on. In any given situation, the AI would consult each layer in its hierarchy, moving from abstract precepts as defined by humans to the concrete but amorphous perceptions of the world’s information that AI has ingested. Only when an AI has exhausted that entire program and failed to find any layer of law adequately applicable in enabling or forbidding behavior would it consult what it has derived from its own early interaction with observable human behavior. In this way it would be empowered to act in alignment with human values even where no written law or norm exists.

To build and implement this set of rules and values, we would almost certainly need to rely on AI itself. No group of humans could match the scale and speed required to oversee the billions of internal and external judgments that AI systems would soon be called upon to make.

Several key features of the final mechanism for human-machine alignment must be absolutely perfect. First, the safeguards cannot be removed or circumvented. The control system must be at once powerful enough to handle a barrage of questions and uses in real time, comprehensive enough to do so authoritatively and acceptably across the world in every conceivable context, and flexible enough to learn, relearn, and adapt over time. Finally, undesirable behavior by a machine—whether due to accidental mishaps, unexpected system interactions, or intentional misuses—must be not merely prohibited but entirely prevented. Any punishment would come too late.

How might we get there? Before any AI system gets activated, a consortium of experts from private industry and academia, with government support, would need to design a set of validation tests for certification of the AI’s “grounding model” as both legal and safe. Safety-focused labs and nonprofits could test AIs on their risks, recommending additional training and validation strategies as needed.

Government regulators will have to determine certain standards and shape audit models for assuring AIs’ compliance. Before any AI model can be released publicly, it must be thoroughly reviewed for both its adherence to prescribed laws and mores and for the degree of difficulty involved in untraining it, in the event that it exhibits dangerous capacities. Severe penalties must be imposed on anyone responsible for models found to have been evading legal strictures. Documentation of a model’s evolution, perhaps recorded by monitoring AIs, would be essential to ensuring that models do not become black boxes that erase themselves and become safe havens for illegality.

Inscribing globally inclusive human morality onto silicon-based intelligence will require Herculean effort. “Good” and “evil” are not self-evident concepts. The humans behind the moral encoding of AI—scientists, lawyers, religious leaders—would not be endowed with the perfect ability to arbitrate right from wrong on our collective behalf. Some questions would be unanswerable even by doxa. The ambiguity of the concept of “good” has been demonstrated in every era of human history; the age of AI is unlikely to be an exception.

One solution is to outlaw any sentient AI that remains unaligned with human values. But again: What are those human values? Without a shared understanding of who we are, humans risk relinquishing to AI the foundational task of defining our value and thereby justifying our existence. Achieving consensus on those values, and how they should be deployed, is the philosophical, diplomatic, and legal task of the century.

To preclude either our demotion or our replacement by machines, we propose the articulation of an attribute, or set of attributes, that humans can agree upon and that then can get programmed into the machines. As one potential core attribute, we would suggest Immanuel Kant’s conception of “dignity,” which is centered on the inherent worth of the human subject as an autonomous actor, capable of moral reasoning, who must not be instrumentalized as a means to an end. Why should intrinsic human dignity be one of the variables that defines machine decision making? Consider that mathematical precision may not easily encompass the concept of, for example, mercy. Even to many humans, mercy is an inexplicable ideal. Could a mechanical intelligence be taught to value, and even to express, mercy? If the moral logic cannot be formally taught, can it nonetheless be absorbed? Dignity—the kernel from which mercy blooms—might serve here as part of the rules-based assumptions of the machine.

[Derek Thompson: Why all the ChatGPT predictions are bogus]

Still, the number and diversity of rules that would have to be instilled in AI systems is staggering. And because no single culture should expect to dictate to another the morality of the AI on which it would be relying, machines would have to learn different rules for each country.

Since we would be using AI itself to be part of its own solution, technical obstacles would likely be among the easier challenges. These machines are superhumanly capable of memorizing and obeying instructions, however complicated. They might be able to learn and adhere to legal and perhaps also ethical precepts as well as, or better than, humans have done, despite our thousands of years of cultural and physical evolution.

Of course, another—superficially safer—approach would be to ensure that humans retain tactical control over every AI decision. But that would require us to stifle AI’s potential to help humanity. That’s why we believe that relying on the substratum of human morality as a form of strategic control, while relinquishing tactical control to bigger, faster, and more complex systems, is likely the best way forward for AI safety. Overreliance on unscalable forms of human control would not just limit the potential benefits of AI but could also contribute to unsafe AI. In contrast, the integration of human assumptions into the internal workings of AIs—including AIs that are programmed to govern other AIs—seems to us more reliable.

We confront a choice—between the comfort of the historically independent human and the possibilities of an entirely new partnership between human and machine. That choice is difficult. Instilling a bracing sense of apprehension about the rise of AI is essential. But, properly designed, AI has the potential to save the planet, and our species, and to elevate human flourishing. This is why progressing, with all due caution, toward the age of Homo technicus is the right choice. Some may view this moment as humanity’s final act. We see it, with sober optimism, as a new beginning.

The article was adapted from the forthcoming book Genesis: Artificial Intelligence, Hope, and the Human Spirit.


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Democrats’ Immigration Problem
Subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsIn the days after the election, Representative Ritchie Torres, who represents a district in the Bronx, piled onto the complaints about his party. He argued they are too responsive to the “far left” and have “managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos.” They were spouting “ivory-towered nonsense” that the working class wasn’t buying. As a series of tweets, the theory is superficial. Kamala Harris—and even Joe Biden—have not been especially beholden to the far left, either in their policies or in their presentation. Harris did not lean into her identity nearly as much as, say, Hillary Clinton did in her campaign. And Bidenomics was aimed at the working and middle class.But Torres’s conviction, it turns out, comes from a deeper place. Torres is 36, Afro Latino, and represents a district that is more than 50 percent Latino and working class to poor. He grew up poor himself and did not graduate from college. It’s by now a very old stereotype, he says, to assume that Latinos are pro-immigration. In his experience, the perception of New York being overrun by undocumented immigrants is a preoccupation among his constituents, and ignoring their worries about this issue, and the state of the economy, is what he believes caused urban neighborhoods to shift rightward.In this episode of Radio Atlantic, we hash out the “Democrats are too woke” theory and talk about Torres’s ideas of how the Democrats should change their approach to immigration.The following is a transcript of the episode:Hanna Rosin: Donald Trump lost New York, like everyone thought he would. So that’s not news. What is, though, is how much better he did in the city than last time. Manhattan moved to the right by five points, Brooklyn by six, Queens, where I grew up, by 11—11 points! As my Trump-voting brother bragged to me: “It was a shellacking.”I’m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic. New York, Miami, Chicago, Philly, Dallas, Detroit all shifted right. Trump’s message seemed to especially land in urban, working-class neighborhoods, where immigrants and people of color live.Now, there are lots of reasons the country shifted rightward, and we’ll probably be talking about them for a while. But these are neighborhoods that have voted reliably Democratic. So the shift is noticeable and surprising, although not to this person.Ritchie Torres: For me, the far left is a gift to Donald Trump. And it will be the gift that will keep on giving until there’s a serious reckoning with the results of the election.Rosin: This is Congressman Ritchie Torres. He represents a district in the Bronx, which, by the way, shifted right by 11 points. He, like many people, has a theory for why Trump won.The day after the election, he tweeted: “Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos, Blacks, Asians, and Jews from the Democratic Party with absurdities like ‘Defund the Police’ or ‘From the River to the Sea’ or ‘Latinx.’ … The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling.”Now, this is not an original take. Lots of people last week were screaming at the Democrats some version of “woke is broke”—that’s how Maureen Dowd put it, at least. But Torres has some authority on the subject that other people lack: He’s young—36. He’s Afro Latino. He’s gay. He grew up poor. And he didn’t finish college.He’s also a proud Democrat representing a district that’s over 50 percent Latino. To him, what happened seems pretty obvious.Torres: You know, the main reason we lost was inflation and immigration. And on the subject of immigration, I do believe we swung the pendulum too far to the left.Rosin: When I think of Kamala Harris, I don’t necessarily think far left. I mean, she talked about being a prosecutor. She was measured on her Israel-Gaza positions. Her position on the border got more moderate. So far left does not necessarily, to me, describe what happened in the last election.Torres: I am not suggesting that Kamala Harris is far left. So take as an example, “defund the police.” It was never the case that the majority of the Democratic Party endorsed “defund the police,” but the far left has an outsized microphone and, therefore, has an outsized impact in defining the image of the Democratic Party in the public mind.Rosin: And you don’t think that’s because the far left is exaggerated by the right? I mean, that the right has a megaphone making it seem like the far left is the Democratic Party when neither Kamala Harris nor Joe Biden are especially far left or advocate far-left policies?Torres: Can you make that argument with respect to immigration?Rosin: Yeah, immigration is an exception. You’re right about that. I mean, I was thinking about—Torres: It’s the exception that cost us the election.Rosin: Yeah. I was thinking about working-class policies because if I think about actual policies—because you talk a lot about policies versus messaging—Torres: We have prosecutors in America who have swung the pendulum too far to the left and have been rejected by voters in blue states.Rosin: Mm-hmm.Torres: So we can blame the voters. We can claim that the voters are misogynist and white supremacist. We could blame Fox News and the New York Post. But those institutions have always been with us in recent political history.Rosin: Although never as mobilized as they are now. I mean, there is a concerted effort to make the Democrats seem like its most extreme version, and that effort is well funded, well coordinated, and very effective.Torres: I’ll take an example of the issue of Israel, right? I’m known to be strongly pro-Israel.Rosin: Right.Torres: There’s not a Republican in the country that could caricature me as anti- Israel because I make it crystal clear where I stand. And rule No. 1 in politics is: If you do not define clearly what you stand for, others will define it for you. And I often feel like the image of the party is defined not by the center left, which is the heart of the party, but either by the far right, in the form of the New York Post and Fox News, or the far left.Rosin: So where do you stand? What would you say publicly and loudly about where the Democratic Party should be?Torres: The Democratic Party should stop pandering to a far left that is far more representative of Twitter and TikTok than it is of the real world. And it should start listening to working-class people of color. And we have to take positions that are aligned with the priorities of working-class people of color.Look—take the issue of immigration. I’m strongly pro-immigration. For me, the more the merrier. I see immigration as the driver of entrepreneurial and the essential workforce of America. But I’m also self-aware enough to know that I’m considerably to the left of the country. And you have to meet people where they are.You cannot impose your ideology on the majority of the American people. You know, as elected officials, we are constrained by public opinion.Rosin: This rightward drift we now know in New York happened in Washington Heights, the West Bronx, Queens, which is where I grew up. It’s working-class communities of color. So how do you explain that? Is it all immigration? What is that?Torres: Look—for me, what was most troubling was not only the fact that Donald Trump won but how he won. Not only did he crack the blue wall in the industrial Midwest, but he’s beginning to crack the blue wall in urban America. You know, he came within five points of winning New Jersey.Rosin: Right.Torres: He came within 12 points of winning New York. He won nearly 30 percent of the vote in the Bronx, which is one of the most Democratic and Latino counties in America. And keep in mind that the trends that we are seeing unfold long predate the 2024 election. Donald Trump made inroads among voters of color, particularly Latinos, in the 2020 election. And he decisively built on those gains in the 2024 election, but he did not begin those gains in the 2024 election.Rosin: So you think it’s police and immigration?Torres: The main reason is inflation and immigration and public safety. But on the subject of inflation, we were a victim of circumstances—like, supply-chain disruptions during COVID led to high inflation. And when you’re the incumbent party in power, you’re blamed for what happens, fairly or unfairly. And to be blamed for inflation is a political death sentence. So that, to me, is not the fault of the party. Inflation is a global phenomenon with global causes. But immigration is different. I do feel there was political malpractice that led to our loss of credibility on the issue of immigration.You know, since 2022, there has been an unprecedented wave of migration, whose impact was felt not only at the border but in cities like New York, where the shelter system and the social safety net and municipal finances were completely overwhelmed. You know, in December of 2023, Quinnipiac reported that 85 percent of New Yorkers were concerned about the impact of the migrant crisis on New York City.Despite clear signs of popular discontent, the Biden administration waited two and a half years before issuing an executive order regulating migration at the border. And by then it was too late. The political damage had been done. The Republicans had successfully weaponized the issue against us.Rosin: Okay. This is helpful. Your critiques come across on Twitter as broad critiques, the sort of general, broad critique that we don’t speak to the working class. And there are parts of that that don’t totally make sense to me, but I think you’re narrowing that to a couple of specific and important issues.Torres: Well, I think if you—first, it’s Twitter, so I’m constrained by the limits of tweets. But I would recommend that you read all the commentary I’ve made, not simply one tweet that gained more than 3 million views. The first tweet I sent out was about just the complicated electoral environment that we were entering.Vice President Harris was at a structural disadvantage in an antiestablishment atmosphere. The majority of Americans disapproved of the Biden administration. The majority of Americans feel that America is on the wrong track or heading in the wrong direction. And the majority of Americans feel that they are worse off today than they were four years ago.That is an insurmountable challenge, no matter who’s the nominee, right? It’s about structural reality rather than individual personality. Now, we thought that Donald Trump was so radioactive that we could overcome that structural challenge, and we were wrong.Rosin: Did you think that, by the way? Did you also think that? Like, were you surprised?Torres: I’m shocked but not surprised. Like, I find Donald Trump’s victory to be shocking but not surprising, because, in recent electoral history, there is no precedent for an incumbent party winning a presidential election when more than 70 percent of Americans think the country is on the wrong track or headed in the wrong direction. And so in the end, it is not surprising that Trump fatigue was outweighed by the popular discontent over inflation and immigration.Rosin: After the break, I ask Torres how he thinks Democrats can rebuild after this loss.[Break]Rosin: Okay. So let’s turn to rebuilding. It seems genuinely difficult in 2024 to compile a Democratic Party that’s working-class voters plus urban, college-educated, mostly white liberals. Do you have any ideas or thoughts about how to stick those two coalitions together?Torres: I would look to New York as a success. I mean, New York was a profound disappointment in 2022. You know, Lee Zeldin was masterful at weaponizing the words of the far left against the Democratic Party, causing congressional losses in 2022. But in 2024, we had a resounding success.We took back nearly all the congressional seats that we had lost. We ran on the strength of strong candidates like Laura Gillen and Tom Suozzi and Josh Riley and Pat Ryan. And the common thread among all of them is that every one of them is a centrist or center-left Democrat. So for me, the lesson learned there is that the road to 270 electoral votes and the road to the congressional majority runs through center left, not the far left.Rosin: And can you say what center left sounds like? What is a center-left Democrat talking about? Are they talking about specific constituent issues? What does it look like to be responsive?Torres: Economically populist, right? We have to convey the sense that we’re fighting for working people and that we’re holding powerful interests accountable, right? And I think that’s where the left is onto something, right? I think what we should avoid are the excesses on issues like immigration or public safety, right?There should be nothing resembling “defund the police,” nothing resembling open borders. People do care about border security. People do care about public safety. We have to ensure that we’re on the center of those issues while doubling down on economic populism.Rosin: So weirdly, on a national level, like an Elizabeth Warren-ish message, it sounds like what you’re talking about. So when I think of real solutions to working-class problems, I think of breaking up monopolies, real strong consumer protections. But those are big-government policies, and big-government policies are not that popular. That approach doesn’t seem to really gain traction, even though it seems like the right policy solution.Torres: So much of politics is rhetorical, and I just feel like we have to give people the sense that we are fighting for them, right? And too often, people have the impression that we’re obsessed with a culture war. But I want to be clear: I continue to believe the main reasons we lost the election were inflation and immigration. And I disagree with Bernie Sanders’ critique. I do not think President Biden abandoned the working class. Legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act is meant to support working people. It’s meant to support America, but the benefits of the legislation in the short term are outweighed by the cost of inflation.Rosin: So can you say how you would talk about immigration or address immigration? Because for people who are not looking too closely, it feels a little counterintuitive that, you know, a majority say—Latino or people-of-color districts and voting class—their main issue is restrictions on immigration. It seems, on its face, to be a contradiction. Now, I’m sure when you get deeper, it isn’t.Torres: If you’re stereotyping Latinos, sure.Rosin: Yeah, exactly. So let’s get beneath the stereotype, and, like, how would you walk through that issue?Torres: Well, I mean, keep in mind that the most Latino county in America was Starr County, right at the border. In 2016, Hillary Clinton won it by 60 percentage points. And in 2024, Donald Trump won nearly 60 percent—a complete collapse of Latino support. Look—my view is that we do not have a messaging problem; we have a reality problem.When the migrant crisis was unfolding, we should have responded with the sense of urgency that the public demanded of us. The public saw it as a crisis. So it’s not a messaging problem. It’s a reality problem. When there is a crisis, when there’s an emergency, when there’s a metaphorical fire, we have to extinguish the fire. We have to do everything we can to extinguish the fire, or else we’re going to pay a price at the ballot box.Rosin: Although, it still surprises me that people would drift towards a leader who uses words like “mass deportation,” you know, or the whole “floating island of garbage” thing. Like, it still surprises me that that’s not an automatic “no.”Torres: Again, I’m appalled by it, but I’m self-aware enough to recognize that I’m considerably to the left of the rest of the country in immigration. And here’s the danger: If we swing the pendulum too far to the left on issues like immigration and public safety, we will risk a public reaction that will make our country more right wing, not less; more restrictionist on immigration, not less; more conservative on public safety, not less.Rosin: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. So how do you—Torres: I just want to illustrate this point further: Before the “defund the police” movement, Republicans were becoming more open to criminal-justice reform, right? Hakeem Jeffries, who’s going to be, eventually, the speaker of the House, negotiated a bipartisan criminal-justice-reform legislation. And then after the “defund the police” movement, any hope of bipartisanship on criminal justice has all but collapsed.Rosin: I see. So this is what you mean. You’re saying, The Democrats are allowing—or, by capitulating to some far-left language, are allowing—the Republicans to use the language against us. Like, they’re handing them a tool.Okay. I understand what you’re saying. Just as a model, can you just tell me how you talk to your constituents about immigration? So we know what your own personal feelings are. We know that you’re listening to what they’re saying. What’s the kind of language that the Democrats could have adopted and should adopt in the future about a touchy issue like immigration?Torres: I’m not clear the issue is language. I mean, I’m happy to answer the question, but I—Rosin: What kind of policies? Sorry. Yes, you’re right. What kind of policies?Torres: I mean, basic border security.Rosin: Just talk about that. Yeah.Torres: Like, so you cannot have a system where anyone anywhere can cross the border, declare asylum, and then remain here indefinitely.Rosin: Right.Torres: And there was a point at which the sheer number of people coming became overwhelming. Like, it put unprecedented strain on the shelter system and social safety net of New York City. And, you know, I know Mayor Adams came under severe criticism for excoriating the administration. But for me, the problem was not Mayor Adams complaining about the migrant crisis; the problem was the reality of the migrant crisis and the administration’s failure to address it with the urgency that the public demanded.Look—I feel if we return to the center left on both immigration and public safety, I’m cautiously optimistic that communities of color will naturally gravitate toward the Democratic Party as its natural home. That’s my belief.Rosin: Right.Torres: We have to meet people where they are, or there’s a limit to how far we can deviate from strongly held public sentiment on an issue like immigration.Rosin: Last thing I want to say is: Disinformation seems overwhelming—like, just overwhelming in a very, very coordinated way. How do you combat something like that? Like, no matter what you will say on immigration, there’ll be a disinformation campaign to skew it, turn it, whatever.Torres: Look—we do our best to speak out against disinformation, but I’m probably in the minority here. I’m not convinced we lost because of disinformation.Like, if you remove inflation and immigration from the table, we win the election. We win the election because Donald Trump’s net favorability has been chronically underwater. He is unpopular among most Americans, but he was seen as a change agent, as an alternative to a status quo marked by inflation and the migrant crisis. If you change the status quo, he no longer wins the election. That’s my belief.Rosin: Okay. All right. This has been really, really helpful. I really appreciate this. Thank you.Torres: Of course.Rosin: This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I’m Hanna Rosin. Thank you for listening.
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